So that was my 2000 [TEFAF] Maastricht, where I went away dejected but finally redeemed myself. 1. But I just didn't have enough practice. New York? You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." [00:38:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. Antioch. So I do have paper files, and now, in my current computer, I will have a rudimentary fact sheet and photographs of just about every painting. There's a plaque to my grandfather, dedicated to my grandfather, but it doesn't say anything about me. So those are the reason that I try to stay involved with things like the Corpus Rubenianum, which is the Rubens study group that is publishingit runs the Burchard foundation that publishes the books, the Corpus Rubenianum. And my role has come down to the things I'm good at, which is financial management and, you know, making sure that we, I think, take measured aesthetic steps. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And the flea markets then were. So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. You know, that wasthat's one distinguishing factor of the firm that I reallythat I came to have great comfort from. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah. Last year waswe had a three-day thing in Rome. That is. I remember he was 90 when he bowled a 300. It had been in dealer hands so long, and it had been sort of, shall we say, gussied up so many times by restorersanother layer of varnish, another layer of feeble retouching, another layer of varnish. The Red School House - by Winslow Homer: The Turkey Buzzard - by Winslow Homer: The Veteran in a New Field - by Winslow Homer: The Water Fan - by Winslow Homer: The West Wind - by Winslow Homer: The Woodcutter - by Winslow Homer: Two Girls on the Beach Tynemouth - by Winslow Homer: Two Scouts - by Winslow Homer: Under the Coco Palm - by Winslow . They had good people; they had good people. And we were able to put together a comprehensive Laserstein show. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, longer term; I'm excited when an institution finds that something I provide to them fills a lacuna that they would then feelthat they would really miss if I took it away. Is it an official. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it's very arbitrary, and I think maybe they were going to open it later, and maybe they weren't. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? So I wasn't at home there, you know, as a person. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I can just give a recent example. So, yeah. So I have a whale vertebrae the size of this table. So, yes. And, you know, because of that, it creates incredible attribution controversies, which are passionate arguments about. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I sold it all. She shifted her little chair over, and I walked by. JUDITH RICHARDS: So he's the director ofthe managing director, CLIFFORD SCHORER: He's director. It's the same sort of, you know, psychological idea. I'm trying to think where else Iand I traveled all over Eastern Europe during the communist period, so I spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. And I think if you're focused enough to stay on the object, you know, to think at core about the transaction with your object and not listen to all the other noise and hype and marketing and, you know, all of that, and if you can learn as much as you can about that one object you're interested in, if you lose this one, so be it, you know. Shop high-quality unique Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer T-Shirts designed and sold by independent artists. JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. So in that archive, every time I open any given artist, I will find something astonishing that I didn't know about andyou know, so thatto me, that's justit's, like, literally a treat a day. I resigned from the collections committee at the Worcester Art Museum. Because, actually, I got rid of the Victorian, and I now live in a Gropius house. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In that field, I have them now, and ironically, I didn't have them then. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I don't mind living in a cardboard box. "You want a bottle of mineral water? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, all the time, yeah. [00:18:01], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, and it has to be opportunistic. JUDITH RICHARDS: To considering and, in fact, acquiring a partialyou were the head of a group of investors, JUDITH RICHARDS: And that's been since 2014, right? I mean, there wasthere was a bit of knowledge of something's not right here. Is it something that you're really concerned about, or is ityes. Winslow Homer. Were you in a kind of museum? And, you know, I've watched her career rise. And it sounds like you had a much broader approach, or deeper approach. A little house in Levittown that was literally bursting with stamps. Or do I say nothing? She just, actually, sold one of my earliest acquisitions to one of her collectors because, you know, now I'm not so focused on that. So I came to that same point, that same impasse, in stamp collecting, where, okay, I have every single U.S. issue, except for these 27. JUDITH RICHARDS: When those things happen, are youbuyers at auction aren't identified. So, I think18, 19, 20, in that area, I spent 26 weeks a year outside the United States. And they said, "You're out of your mind." And the advance guard, I remember the night the advance guard came to the first Skinner auction. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do they focusexcuse my ignorance. She's great. He worked masterfully with both oil paint and watercolors. It's fascinating to me to see the roots of sea travel that were established by that point to move these goods around at incredibly low cost. I mean, there wereit was such a different time. So, you know, you have theseyou have those happy happenstances. JUDITH RICHARDS: We can talk about that. But for those moments of flourishing, when they were a key point, you know, look what they produced. Clifford passed away on month day 1984, at age 67 at death place, North Carolina. JUDITH RICHARDS: ancestry. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There weren'tthere weren't. [00:40:10]. Right and Left Painting. "The auction is coming up." Unique Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer Posters designed and sold by artists. Have youhow do you go abouthow in those early years, how did you go about defining and refining what exactly you were looking for? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I leave that to Anna and Anthony, and, you know, I come in and I nod my head in approval, because they have such amazing taste. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. Images. I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you have conservation issues? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I moved around quite a bit. And, you know, there was a day when Agnew's had 40 employees and a full building in London and, you know, exhibitions going on 24-7 and had printmaking exercises, had contemporary artists doing things. My aesthetic was decided very early. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, when I got involved. CLIFFORD SCHORER: these are bigger projects. I mean, I think that right nowso what we did in the interim is, we did this portraiture show which brought in, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It brought in Kehinde Wiley, Lucien Freud, and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, otheryou know, Kehinde Wiley's. I'll happily have lunch tomorrow." So it really was a question of lobbying to say, "Look, I'll make this better for you over a period of years," than doing it this way. It's fascinating. It was a solitary thing. 3) Example 2: Create New Variable Based On Other Columns Using transform () F I think we're right-sized for the moment for the market. We've done Paris Tableau, which is obviously now over. I think the problem was it was the overlap between business and art that made it difficult for them to manage the institution. I was there, and it was fun, and it was interesting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. But I think it was just muscle memory at that point, so. And often. You know, people with whom I've sort of done business; I've had long conversations. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. As you say, this aesthetic experience or, you know, the cultivation of the eye or a satisfaction of the eye. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, the difference is if the artist is alive, and the dealer is alive, and you've got, you know, sort of some other motivations. I probably should, but, you know. And you wouldn't have enduring liabilities for all the things that you've sold in the past because the company would cease to exist. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, there wereI would say. So it wasyou know, thatit's not as if you canat the level we're talking about in paleontology, there's not many opportunities. You know, this sheet, that sheet, squares. I mean, I pointed it out, and he bought it for the museum, and now it's, you knowit's an extremely interesting thing about how these ideas disseminate. And you know, in those days, there were more sales than there are now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think who else. Boston. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My grandfather and I had a similar language about the world. He started his career as a freelance illustrator. I've got some Portuguese examples. Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And Konrad Bernheimer. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are you involved in creating those settings in the booths, as you described? They'll be in the Pre-Raphaelite show. [00:04:06], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the entry point at that time was sort of the 10 to $25,000 per picture, and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, some incrediblethere was an estimate of the marketplace, half a million paintings, and the paleontological specimens of that scale are four, five [laughs], yes. Clifford celebrated 56th birthday on May 31. You have to go to the source. I ended up going to Boston University in a program that they created for, shall we say, eccentric-track children. Everyone's retiring. They started chatting about art, and then Mr. Phillipson mentioned. Before that, I'd always assumed that I couldn't. But I went away, you know, tail between my legs, because it was absolutely unattainable for me. JUDITH RICHARDS: I imagine you wanted to preserve the goodwill of the name of Agnew's. And I hadn't ever sold anything, so there was no selling going on. So it's, to me, those moments. I never thought, frankly, it was a field of complexity enough to warrant even reading about it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. So Ibasically, I lost it marginally. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I was living in Chesterfield, and I was commuting to Ashland. JUDITH RICHARDS: No, no, no, this is very important, JUDITH RICHARDS: what you were talking about. So there were, you know, four or five sales a year. And all, you know, Hungarian and Germanit was mostlyhis world was primarily German, Austro-Hungarian, and all the occupied territories from the First and Second World War. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? [Laughs.] [They laugh. They werethey wereI mean, in France, of course. They have no idea. JUDITH RICHARDS: spent five dollars and you get a thousand stamps? I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: So thereyou know, whatthe sort of happy circumstance that might fit into what you're asking is if Iand I can think of one, actually. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So their largest triceratopsian specimen is mine. So there was another one, and that ended upI ended up personally selling that withthrough Agnew's to the Antwerp Museum as their only first period van Dyck sketch. You know, the senior ladies from Long Island would go, so. When you were also collecting that area, did you find the need and actually, in fact, travel to other cities? Does it happen that a painting and a drawing will happen to hit the market at the same time? They said, "If you take the car, you'll be murdered." But again, my collecting evolved. So, you know, the finances of it drove the whole thing. They didn't talk, and they weren't friendly. And as I said, I mean, that was ait was a wise decision to buy Chinese. That'syou know, those are all possibilities. This is the flotsam and jetsam of my other businesses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Early 20th-century British and Continental. He bought Snyders's house, and he's turned it into a museum, and he connected it to the museum next door. He lived until I was 13 years old. [Laughs.] So those areyou know, those are fun. I'm at my office; I'm looking the Strozzi up, and I see Worcester Art Museum, and then it dawned on me, Wait a minute, they also have that Piero di Cosimo. And I remember coming around the corner and seeing something so staggeringly, unbelievably great that I couldn't believe it. No, no, no, I will. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the stated goal has always been to die with one painting, the best painting I've ever owned. In my mind, I have a totally different collection, which is that I had unlimited funds for 25 years, and I selectively purchased the 19 works that came through the marketplace that I should have purchased. My maternal grandfather was dead by the time I was born. Clifford Schorer. JUDITH RICHARDS: But what about the issue of who do they actually belong to, and do they belong to the culture, the local museum? 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