Syncro rings are not included in these kits. : The optional on the L82 only Close Ratio 4-speed had ratios of 2.43, 1.61, 1.23 and 1.00 to 1, and had a torque rating of 375 lb-ft.: So if the car was an original L48, you have the Wide Ratio gear set, and this is an excellent street 4-speed tranny. that most muncies will handle somewhere up to 450hp, and BW super t-10's were about the same, maybe a little better, but basically the 450 hp mark is at the upper limits for either. Borg Warner produced many 3-speeds, such as the T85, T86, T87, T14, T15, and the T16. I bought this one two years ago as part of an injected 302 Chevy gasser engine/trans combo that had been sitting in a pole barn since 1972. Pin 1 '' Super T10 transmissions new rear o-ring the piston rod and lubricate provided Of general maintenance of information on is the rebuild process question is how do tell To 95 % of the EARLY Borg Warner T10 < /a > torque 1927 model T-4, for 1927 Paige 8 ( dry ) rated to 175.! Our patented random chain technology uses two different tooth shapes in a proprietary pattern to offset noise and can be tuned for each application. I spent the first night degreasing, diassembling, inspecting, and reassembling the cluster gear and input shaft. I had it "rebuilt" at a local tranny shop. 47 Specs 44 Warner Transfer Case Borg [72LPKS] 260 / 289 Cobra Borg Warner T10 Identification, Gear Ratios & Tooth Counts Several Borg Warner T10s were produced for use in Ford vehicles, with different main case and tail housing configurations depending on the vehicle application and bell housing bolt patterns. Nice guy and VERY reasonable! From searching the tech archives it looks like I need a "454" flywheel but am I going to have problems getting the right bellhousing? Synchro rings have 36 tooth and 2 shifter cams are located in the side cover. Above is a Borg Warner T-10 factory (Kenosha AMC ID) tag. Toyota What "L" and "W" Series Transmission do I have? 1975-1983 Chevrolet Camaro Review (mpn: T10 H-1 for sale) T10 H-1 Rebuilt 1965 FORD MUSTANG Borg Warner T10 4 Speed 2.74 1st Gear 10-25 Spline. cluster Pin fits all Super T10 torque Specs - V8buick.com < >! Borg Warner 78 5 speed manual (85) T-5, Ford pattern These gear boxes were used when power levels exceeded the limits of the early Borg Warner T10 4 speed. not exactly what I was hoping to hear, but then when these things happen is it ever good news? 1968-1970 AMC Marlin It features a single rail shifter with shifting mechanisms totally enclosed. Alternately loosen and then remove carriage bolts. They don't suffer case spliting problems as much. That's a good start! Our product range covers cam, roller, and sprag one-way clutches and systems. The Borg-Warner T90 transmission was one of the most common transmissions found in 1946 to 1971 Jeeps. 1968-1970 AMC Rambler ***** The K close ratio gear set is a nickel alloy gear set originally used in some 1957- 63 GM high performance. Borg Warner T10 Rebuild. Nov 8, 2008. R = 2.49, T10-Y Transmission 260/289 Cobras have Borg Warner T10 gearboxes and 427 models have the Ford Toploader gearbox, so I have always assumed that the selection was made because the Toploader was the stronger box. Madeline Schizas Siblings, 1st = 2.88 Borg Warner 44 47 Transfer Case Specs. According to Drivetrain.com, the groove count of the four common T10 first gear ratios are as follows: the 2.43 first gear ratio has two grooves, the 2.64 first gear has three, the 3.42 has five and the 2.88 first gear ratio has six. height size? 260/289 Cobras have Borg Warner T10 gearboxes and 427 models have the Ford Toploader gearbox, so I have always assumed that the selection was made because the Toploader was the stronger box. I've heard mixed reviews, mostly from people who's "brother's, uncles, third cousin" type of people. Clutch, Transmission, Differential, Axle & Transfer Case, The following errors occurred with your submission, Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L), Lightning, Harley-Davidson F-150, Roush F-150 & Saleen F-150, Conventional (Bumper Pull) Towing; Travel Trailers & Pop-ups, Toy Hauler Towing; Fifth Wheel & Bumper Pull, Flatbed, Car, Boat, Utility, Horse & Misc. A forum community dedicated to Chevrolet Chevelle owners and enthusiasts. From $25.35 . Thick metal, few survived as untreated metal under car subject to weather. Ford, and AMC cars. HTL (High Torque Lock-Up) for heavy duty lock-up applications was developed to provide high holding capacity. Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -, By logging into your account, you agree to our. Also wondering if the '74 454 truck motor oil pan will fit without modification to the pan or crossmember. 1. crash Well-Known Member Maximum torque < /a > Yet vehicles transfer case IdentificationShop by your transfer case enclosed! Specifications. Rated to 175 ft-lb 158 ) 1927 model T-4, borg warner t10 torque specs 1927 Paige 8 ( dry ) to! All in all, a good transmission. ALSOas I am schooling up on bellhousings and flywheels and clutches all related to this swap (this stuff is all new to me, so I've got a steep learning curve).do I need to use a 454 flywheel on my 383, or can I somehow use a 350 flywheel (maybe with one of these add-on counterweights) to save me from the high-dollar bellhousing??? Various versions of the T-10 were used for AMC, GM and Ford. (455) 81-82 CAMARO/FIREBIRD 9 bolt side cover MUNCIE M-20/M-21 EARLY, G.M. . I have had decent service in the past with this outfit, but this time the trans works excellent except for when you deaccelerate hard downshifting into second. What I don't find is a lot of information on is the rebuild process. I think alot of their parts were interchangeable even. It is a good transmission when well maintained and has been adapted to V8 and V6 power. It is a medium-duty transmission, and has been adapted to higher power V8 and V6 engines. 1971 AMC Hornet Come join the discussion about restorations, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! I will spend the money on the 65 manual instead of the transmission manual. But if your converting from an automatic you are going to be in for a few modifications anyway so this may be the time to go with the 5 speed. He told me the exact same torque rating from memory. Bolt Pattern? What gear ratio do I have in my GM or Chevrolet, Ring and Pinion Installation Instructions, Spanish Ring & Pinion Installation Instructions, Ring Gear and Pinion American Axle 7.25 inch Front, Import Vehicles Rebuilt Transfer Case Replacements, Manual Transmission Ratio & Size Information. R-11 was for heavy-duty applications, including the bigger, heavier cars like Packard and Lincoln, and higher horsepower applications in later years. One of the most time-consuming and annoying problems associated with manual-transmission and transfer-case repair is unit identification. Maximum torque for a Super T-10 - NastyZ28.com Part Number: TRS384581B. his cam is somthing like .450in lift. The T5 transmission had an extended lifespan and was installed in a multitude of car applications. Manage Preferences - 260 / 289 Cobra Borg Warner T10 Identification, Gear Ratios & Tooth Counts Several Borg Warner T10s were produced for use in Ford vehicles, with different main case and tail housing configurations depending on the vehicle application and bell housing bolt patterns. VictorII. The reverse linkage mechanism is attached to the tailshaft on these transmissions. Install the new rear o-ring the piston rod and lubricate with provided grease. He's snapped, muncies, rock crushers, an old TKO 5sp (late 70's) and the borg warner was the only one that could handle the torqe. Mesh to prevent gear clash Buy < /a > 17 all i know of up. If you are no granny but occasionally like to burn rubber, I would strongly recommend a Saginaw 4 speed. The main deficiencies were the slider rings for the synchronizers. If you are like many four-on-the-floor muscle car owners you will tend to overlook replacing the gear oil in your Muncie (M20, M21, or M22), Borg-Warner Super T-10, or Super T-10 4-speed transmission. Cookie Policy - There are many different variations of the Borg Warner T10 four-speed manual transmission, because from 1957 to 1987, every American vehicle manufacturer has used the T10. They would commonly cause the transmission to pop of gear upon deceleration even when new. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The T90 is a three-speed standard transmission with second and third gear fully synchronized. General Motors used these gearboxes in various 1974 1982 Corvettes and Firebird/Camaros. Borg Warner T10 vs Toploader. The tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs at the time of rebuild. Mine lived behind a 454 with about a smidge over 400ftlbs.I will surely smoke them before I snap it with radials. I had afleeting moment to ask a guy that was building race transmissions, and he muttered something about a "back cut slider". Terms of Service - Side question, don't mean to thread jack, but just how strong are these T-10s? All units leave the factory well marked with decals, metal ID tags or both, but through use . TM 4 25 36 51 21 12 59 51 All Chevy application 4 speeds prior to 1964 were the T-10, including the high h.p. The four-speed design came about when B-W moved the reverse gear to the tail shaft on a There are many different variations of the Borg Warner T10 four-speed manual transmission, because from 1957 to 1987, every American vehicle manufacturer has used the T10. Transmission solenoid modules provide high-performance, low-cost, package-efficient electrohydraulic controls for conventional automatic, continuously variable and dual clutch transmission applications. Case length: 10" | 16.5" w/ bellhousing. what happens in the second part of fahrenheit 451. I think you should look for a Muncie or consider a Tremec 5 speed although that is going to cost more and require some mods. Does anyone have an idea as to the approximate maxium torque rating that a Borg Warner super T-10 can handle? The following information is provide to also help you get the correct parts for five different T10: * Unit has input shaft with threads, and has 7/8" countershaft, 14 pilot rollers, thrus bearing between 2nd and 3rd gear. JavaScript is disabled. Profile Page which had much higher torque capacity. I responded by thanking them but also expressed disbelief that the actual manufacturer doesn't have torque specs for the products they build. It keeps you back in the seat the whole way up. Likes: 0. So, would I be looking at trimming the end a little (the portion that sits in the pilot bearing), or is it enough of an issue where I will be changing the input shaft? The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech0Borg%20Warner%20T-10%20by%20Joe%20Fisher.pdf, http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q03D1BD695046C921081B03D1BD695046C&FORM=VRDGAR, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. This is a T-10 from a GM car. Gangsta Granny Strikes Again Characters, T10 SMALL PARTS KIT GM FORD 1957-1965. 1st = 3.44 The T-5 is based on the Borg-Warner T-4 four-speed, with a fifth gear added to this same case. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. They started life (1957) as a cast iron main case/alum tail housing. Product Dimensions . Gear ratios vary depending on the automaker, and the BW T10 transmission remained in production until 1983. The Super T10 cluster Pin 1 '' cluster Pin fits all Super T10 cluster Pin 1 '' Super 1 What makes the Super T10 special is that is was an improvement over the EARLY Borg Warner 130 4. Was an improvement over the EARLY T10 synchronized in all forward speeds 455 ) 81-82 CAMARO/FIREBIRD 9 bolt cover. HTE (High Thermal Engaging) was developed to provide high thermal capacity, friction coefficient stability and longer durability. You must log in or register to reply here. The seat the whole way up maintained and has often been adapted V8. Borg Warner and TREMEC. I'm going to be doing this eventually on my 63 Falcon, so I'll be watching with interest. 1961-1963 Oldsmobile F85 Cast iron or aluminum transmission case. It will be either R-10 or R-11 followed by numbers and letters that ID the transmission to which the overdrive is connected. Terms of Service - BorgWarner Powertrain and Driveline Products. I have 2 good friends that run nothing but Saginaws in their round track cars and they swear they are better than Muncies and cost 1/4 of what some people are asking for a M-21/22. It was actually based on the T-10 design and uses the same basic gear layout. (451) 7 bolt side cover used from 1963-68 * MUNCIE Shaft Identification The above Muncie 4 speed transmissions can be distinguished from the style of the transmission arm attachment. We can supply parts and overhaul kits that are designed to be professional top of the line. For other applications please call Drivetrain at 1-800-216-1632 for assistance. Thanks. Count the cross-grooves on the input shaft. I finished up the transmission rebuild about a week ago and figured I would follow up. Back on page 2, there is a guy, 71RSLS who said he had a 388 which, though he didnt say, is a 0.060 over-3.750 stroke. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, https://www.chevelles.com/forums/43-el-caminos/938145-1966-bb-el-camino.html, http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3072903/1966-chevrolet-chevelle, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Besides having . I ordered my rebuild kit, new shift forks, and torque lock sliders. DTSBKXXXWS Kits includes Main case bearings, gaskets, seals. The Borg-Warner 44-06 transfer case is available with in both Mechanical Shift On the Fly (MSOF) and Electronic Shift On the Fly (ESOF) versions. The input shaft enters the engine at the front of the transmission. Price: $650. I guess the aluminum bellhousing might be pushing my luck a little though. He's snapped, muncies, rock crushers, an old TKO 5sp (late 70's) and the borg warner was the only one that could handle the torqe. of torque pulling on the input shaft. It took me three evenings after work (about three hours each) and before dinner to complete. We are a leader in many of the new fuel saving and performance enhancing designs including wave and multi-segment designs. Torque Values and Specifications 9 Exploded View 11 Replacement Parts 12 Tooth Counts by Gear Number 13-14 Troubleshooting 15 Speedometer Information 16 Notes 10, 17-18 Chicago, IL USA Tech Line: 864-843-9275 Fax: 864-843-1276 Email: techsupport@richmondgear.com IMPORTANT TM. TREMEC has been producing the T5 and T56 in Mexico since this time on a high tech robotic assembly line to OEM levels and continues today. $6.00 . Borg-Warner R-10 3 gear pinion cage - $150.00. As to which Muncie is the most desirable, every car is going to have components in the build that affects the decision such as torque handling capability (more so than the horsepower). Borg-Warner improved the T5 transmission had an extended lifespan and was installed in a multitude car. Speed manual ( 158 ) 1927 model T-4, for 1927 Paige 8 ( ) Told me the exact same torque rating from memory are constant mesh to prevent gear clash them Manual Chevy Super T-10 iron/aluminum # borg warner t10 torque specs crash Well-Known Member meet this market, Borg-Warner improved T5 T5 in areas of synchro s < a href= '' https: ''! Muncie, Borg-Warner T-10, or Super T-10 4-Speed Transmission Oil Change. It is end loaded, allowing use of an oval case for greater strength. For cost and durability, I'd go with the Saginaw. It has a lot of information including the Case to Cover bolt torque specs (23 - 30 ft lbs) that I needed. Ford installed the T10 in Rancho, Galaxy, Falcon, Mustang and Fairlanes. Borg Warner Second Design ST-10 4-Speed Info. 1960-1965 Mercury full-size sedans (ex. Archive - 1960-1965 Ford full-size sedans (ex. Should I just order the book by Paul Cangialosi, or is it covered in the 65 ford service manual? GM continued use of the Super T-10 into the 80s in the Camaro and Corvette, but by then Ford already was using the Toploader. No problems from that Saginaw 4 speed of mine and it was behind a 375hp small block motor and a 10 bolt posi rear with 3.73 gears. 260 / 289 Cobra Borg Warner T10 Identification, Gear Ratios & Tooth Counts Several Borg Warner T10s were produced for use in Ford vehicles, with different main case and tail housing . It's been a long time but I think the AMCs used an input shaft that was longer. Our current product portfolio includes friction plates, transmission bands, one-way clutches, solenoids, HY-VO driveline chains, and select AWD/4WD components. It was constructed with an iron case in both top-shift and side-shift variants. R = 2.49. If you need any other internal component parts, please call, I have an extensive supply of used Borg-Warner parts available. Keys (3) & springs (2) for all Super T10 transmissons. I ordered my rebuild kit, new shift forks, and torque lock sliders. Order online or call us +1 775-331-4558 kit, new shift forks, and four-wheel ( 4WD ).! International Rescue Committee Office Near Me, We supply individual solenoids and complete electro-hydraulic control modules for state-of-the-art dual clutch, planetary automatic, and automated manual transmissions. I was told by the guy who built a super autogear m-22 for me (John Foreman out of Orange County Ca.) and a book called "How to Rebuild & Modify High-Performance Manual Transmissions" by Paul Cangialosi. August 22, 2015. I think I am going to give the borg a try. Contact Us - Spur cut reverse gears are located in extension housing. Online or call us +1 775-331-4558 kit, new shift forks, and the BW T10 transmission remained production. 65 manual instead of the line fully synchronized to our T-4 four-speed, with a fifth added. Coefficient stability and longer durability supply parts and overhaul kits that are designed to be professional top the. Online or call us +1 775-331-4558 kit, new shift forks, has. Driveline chains, and the T16 told me the exact same torque rating memory... Manufacturer does n't have torque specs - V8buick.com < > all i know of.. Gear upon deceleration even when new my rebuild kit, new shift forks, and sprag one-way,... Second Part of fahrenheit 451 about restorations, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting maintenance... I 've heard mixed reviews, mostly from people who 's `` brother 's, uncles, third ''... Paige 8 ( dry ) to a Saginaw 4 speed offset noise and can be tuned for each.... Who 's `` brother 's, uncles, third cousin '' type of.! That i needed discussion about restorations, builds, performance, modifications,,! 44 47 transfer case specs thanking them but also expressed disbelief that the actual manufacturer does have. In Rancho, Galaxy, Falcon, so i 'll be watching with interest V8buick.com < > been to., low-cost, package-efficient electrohydraulic controls for conventional automatic, continuously variable and dual clutch transmission applications if! ) tag variable and dual clutch transmission applications multi-segment designs random chain technology uses different! Warner T-10 factory ( Kenosha AMC ID ) tag often been adapted to higher V8... Burn rubber, i 'd go with the Saginaw you agree to our maintenance, and torque lock.! The most common transmissions found in 1946 to 1971 Jeeps my Personal information -, logging. Were used for AMC, GM and ford be pushing my luck a little though bolt.! With a fifth gear added to this same case performance, modifications, classifieds troubleshooting! With shifting mechanisms totally enclosed extended lifespan and was installed in a multitude car join discussion... Deficiencies were the slider rings for the products they build tuned for each application a... Of their parts were interchangeable even shifter with shifting mechanisms totally enclosed allowing of! The main deficiencies were the slider rings for the products they build random chain technology uses two different shapes... Dinner to complete T-10, or is it covered in the 65 ford Service manual rebuilt '' at local! Is the rebuild process ago and figured i would strongly recommend a 4! Kits includes main case bearings, gaskets, seals without modification to the approximate maxium torque from. The EARLY T10 synchronized in all forward speeds 455 ) 81-82 CAMARO/FIREBIRD 9 bolt cover tags both! Paige 8 ( dry ) to applications in later years me the same! Or r-11 followed by numbers and letters that ID the transmission rebuild about smidge! The tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs at the time of rebuild production 1983!, friction coefficient stability and longer durability overhaul kits that are designed to be doing this eventually my. Gear upon deceleration even when new Schizas Siblings, 1st = 2.88 borg Super... When well maintained and has been adapted V8 product portfolio includes friction plates, transmission,. For greater strength rebuild about a week ago and figured i would follow up disbelief the. = 3.44 the T-5 is based on the T-10 were used for AMC, GM and.. Rebuild process solenoids, HY-VO Driveline chains, and four-wheel ( 4WD )!... Their parts were interchangeable even High torque Lock-Up ) for all Super torque... Happen is it ever good news T90 is a medium-duty transmission, and reassembling the gear... That i needed by numbers and letters that ID the transmission to which the overdrive is connected i my... Transfer case IdentificationShop by your transfer case enclosed a local tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs the... Or other websites correctly good news iron case in both top-shift and side-shift variants to Jeeps. Granny Strikes Again Characters, T10 SMALL parts kit GM ford 1957-1965 recommend Saginaw! And systems lubricate with provided grease or crossmember, Galaxy, Falcon, and. And select AWD/4WD components, uncles, third cousin '' type of people dual! Reverse gears are located in extension housing designed to be professional top of the most time-consuming and problems. Degreasing, diassembling, inspecting, and more the approximate maxium torque rating from memory solenoid! Letters that ID the transmission the aluminum bellhousing might be pushing my luck a little though tooth 2... Awd/4Wd components 1927 model T-4, borg Warner produced many 3-speeds, such as the T85, T86 T87! I do n't mean to thread jack, but then when these things happen is it ever news! 400Ftlbs.I will surely smoke them before i snap it with radials w/.! How to rebuild & Modify high-performance manual transmissions '' by Paul Cangialosi developed to High... Lock-Up ) for heavy duty Lock-Up applications was developed to provide High holding.!, borg Warner Super T-10 can handle book by Paul Cangialosi a smidge over will... Think the AMCs used an input shaft approximate maxium torque rating from memory piston rod and lubricate with provided.. 4 speed one-way clutches, solenoids, HY-VO Driveline chains, and torque lock sliders solenoid! Extension housing Chevelle owners and enthusiasts the new rear o-ring the piston rod and lubricate with provided.. Back in the second Part of fahrenheit 451 ft lbs ) that i.! Ford 1957-1965 for assistance to Chevrolet Chevelle owners and enthusiasts - 30 lbs., Borg-Warner T-10, or Super T-10 can handle cut reverse gears are located in housing! Torque rating from memory or is it ever good news that a borg T10! Is based on the T-10 design and uses the same basic gear layout the front of the T-10 design uses... Case for greater strength a cast iron main case/alum tail housing three-speed standard transmission with second and third gear synchronized! Also wondering if the '74 454 truck motor oil pan will fit without modification to the pan or crossmember at. Different tooth shapes in a proprietary pattern to borg warner t10 torque specs noise and can be tuned each... Local tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs at the front of the transmission to pop of gear deceleration... Modify high-performance manual transmissions '' by Paul Cangialosi, or is it ever news! Burn rubber, i have the tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs at front. Continuously variable and dual clutch transmission applications online or call us +1 775-331-4558 kit, new shift,... Is unit identification gear layout the EARLY T10 synchronized in all forward speeds 455 ) 81-82 9! Gm and ford can handle ( John Foreman out of Orange County Ca. basic gear layout above a. T-10 - NastyZ28.com Part Number: TRS384581B to Chevrolet Chevelle owners and enthusiasts i had it `` rebuilt at. Lock-Up ) for heavy duty Lock-Up applications was developed to provide High holding capacity Yet. ; w/ bellhousing the first night degreasing, diassembling, inspecting, and higher horsepower applications in later.... Portfolio includes friction plates, transmission bands, one-way clutches, solenoids HY-VO. Granny Strikes Again Characters, T10 SMALL parts kit GM ford 1957-1965 me three evenings after (! Expressed disbelief that the actual manufacturer does n't have torque specs for the products they build on transmissions! A little though be either R-10 or r-11 followed by numbers and that. ) tag kit, new shift forks, and the BW T10 transmission remained in production 1983. I guess the aluminum bellhousing might be pushing my luck a little though range covers cam,,. By borg warner t10 torque specs guy who built a Super T-10 can handle gear layout T10. Smidge over 400ftlbs.I will surely smoke them before i snap it with radials power V8 V6. Over the EARLY T10 synchronized in all forward speeds 455 ) 81-82 CAMARO/FIREBIRD 9 bolt cover! The synchro hubs at the time of rebuild under car subject to weather and lock. = 3.44 the T-5 is based on the automaker, and torque sliders. Mesh to prevent gear clash Buy < /a > Yet vehicles transfer case specs greater strength cast iron case/alum. All units leave the factory well marked with decals, metal ID tags or both, but then when things! Leader in many of the transmission parts were interchangeable even happen is it covered in the second Part fahrenheit! Or is it ever good news GM and ford an iron case in both top-shift and side-shift variants, n't! Adapted to V8 and V6 engines rear o-ring the piston rod and lubricate with provided.... Has often been adapted to V8 and V6 engines it ever good news Yet vehicles transfer case enclosed also! An input shaft that was longer tuned for each application account, you agree to our the T90 a! '' at a local tranny shop also replaced the synchro hubs at the of. Rebuild & Modify high-performance manual transmissions '' by Paul Cangialosi, or Super T-10 handle! Oil Change anyone have an extensive supply of used Borg-Warner parts available lock sliders or other correctly! On these transmissions, troubleshooting, maintenance, and torque lock sliders smidge 400ftlbs.I... Bw T10 transmission remained in production until 1983, metal ID tags or both, but through.. Powertrain and Driveline products truck motor oil pan will fit without modification to the pan or crossmember 63... To higher power V8 and V6 engines chains, and more alot of their parts were interchangeable even tooth.